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Old 09-06-2017, 12:14 AM   #221
Thane of Cawdor
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More American immigration news. Trump is overturning an act that Obama enacted called DACA. This allows illegals, when snuck into America, to let their kids turn into citizens. This is unconstitutional I agree. Its the same as when a 9 month pregnant woman jumps the border and gives birth on american soil, her child is a citizen. Some use this as an ability to let them stay. I for one am not against immigration as a whole but do believe that aliens need to become citizens legally. And that our immigration reform needs to be streamlined. waiting 20 years for paperwork is ridiculous. However people border jumping and using their kids as ammo to get citizenship should be illegalized. Its similar to where people will have kids for the sole purpose of getting more welfare money (although I find that grossly immoral in that case as most do, exploiting the loophole.) So KC, as a fellow American, whatcha think?

Regarding Korea, I'm ampin up for the fight. We got our sights on here in the US, ready to go to war. Our boats are already there. I doubt Kim Jong Un is stupid enough to fire a missile directly at America but let's wait and see. World War 3 the nuclear war starts real soon
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Old 09-06-2017, 01:25 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by Thane of Cawdor View Post
This allows illegals, when snuck into America, to let their kids turn into citizens. This is unconstitutional I agree. Its the same as when a 9 month pregnant woman jumps the border and gives birth on american soil, her child is a citizen.
Technically, no. It does not give path to citizenship. Nor do you get welfare or student aid.

Your date of deportation simply gets pushed back.

The only notable impacts in studies have been in the unemployment rate of DACA eligible individuals. There as an increased number of employment by 50 to 75 thousand.

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Regarding Korea, I'm ampin up for the fight.
Really, nobody should be excited for a fight. Maybe prepared is the right words, but if you're "amping", I'll let you be the first to storm the beach.

War is grotesque. I think we forget that sometimes since the last worldwide conflict is out of sight, out of mind in our daily lives.

But if we deplete the other options, then war it must be. And I think we're creeping to that point because of the words "ICBM" and "hydrogen explosion" in the same sentence.

Should North Korea use it any missiles actively as oppose to waving them around like a madman, I don't think there's any other choice.

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I doubt Kim Jong Un is stupid enough to fire a missile directly at America but let's wait and see.
I think his plan is to keep acting mad. His back is against a wall right now. What he wants is the money and food to start flowing back again so he can stay in power.

I like this quote from another forum:

Quote:
You anticipate a problem. You can't say "Do this or I'll nuke you." The response is obviously, "No you won't. The rest of the world would tear your ass a new one." North Korea is a little kid trying to bully a linebacker. But there's one simple trick they don't want you to know! Look crazy.

Now when the crazy kid at school tells you that he's going to fight you unless you give him your applesauce, maybe you figure it isn't worth your time to argue over it. If someone else said that, you'd figure your friends are joking, you'd figure the huge bully means it and could win, but the crazy kid... You don't really know. North Korea's threats and posturing are so much more effective if everyone thinks in the back of their head - you know, just maybe, they'd actually do it.
I think to some level, Trump's instability an erratic behaviour feeds Un as well. Normally, the Guam thing wouldn't have been a big story. In fact, South Korea treated it just like another day. So to use the analogy above, the crazy kid is threatening an easily provoked bully and we're not sure if they're going to punch each other yet.
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Old 09-06-2017, 03:35 AM   #223
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Paul Krugman weighs in.

The Very Bad Economics of Killing DACA
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Old 09-06-2017, 05:02 AM   #224
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Okay...so I finally had a chance to read into the details of DACA.

What really bothers me is that you're going to punish children for their parents' actions (which in many ways is line jumping over people who play the system fairly).

Many Republicans are not happy with the choice, saying along the lines of "we shouldn't, as Americans, hold children legally accountable for the sins of their parents".

The kids did nothing wrong. Their parents did. Give the kids who are, for all intents and purposes, naturalized USA citizens Green Cards.

An excellent example was brought to my attention - there is an individual on YouTube who was brought into the USA and was not deported because of DACA. He is currently paying 400,000 in taxes. And his reward? A one way ticket to Slovakia, a place he really doesn't know.

Does the USA really want to tamper with these effects?

Even worse, this has way too many questions.

- What do you do with many of them? A bunch were brought in at the age of 3 or 4. They are now near 18. Do you send them to a country where they have no roots because, oops, sorry but your parents didn't do you a solid.

- The current proposed "wind down" period is 24 months, but that's 800,000 people you need to move. That's a huge operation and is it even worth the cost?

I'm not going to argue that the legal immigration process shouldn't be used...but now that the door is open, maybe it's just better to let the program run its course. The limitations will mean that we'll see an end to the program soon enough.

- This is a 460 billion dollar projected loss in output over a decade. Why even foot that cost in your output? This is taking a punch just to say you're a man.

Why not just let it end on its own terms?
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Old 09-13-2017, 08:45 AM   #225
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Its the same arguement as welfare not being reformed.

A stupid bitch (not a smart girl, a stupid bitch) goes and hoes herself out. She ends up with 4 kids from 4 guys who skipped the country, are in jail, whatever. She gets a check from the government for each kid. More than enough, most of which she blows on herself. Its not the kid's fault their mom is stupid. However if you can have one kid and make 14,000$ a year (compare to a job where you might end up making 12,000$ a year) why the hell would you work? So people crank out kids just for a check. It cannot continue. Yeah its gonna suck, do you say its not the kids fault? I understand your sympathy but it never should have been constructed this way in the first place (I am an advocate for disability AND unemployment insurance but NOT welfare).
But if you let it continue this way, 1 woman has 4 kids, all with one stupid parent rasing them, and odds are all 4 of them are going to go out and make the same mistake, IE next generation has 16 kids coming from 4 undereducated parents. Eventually the welfare will devour the free market, turning the country into a socialist, then communist state.
Now kirant and KC you know this is an extreme example, and though it may hurt, it shouldn't have been done in the first place. Would you rather turn the future into one where we all suffer or one where some do but as a whole we do better and use that prosperity to feed back into education so the next breed doesnt make the same mistakes as their parents? Thats optimistic, congress repeats the same mistakes cause the new generations vote for the same failed ideas cause we are undereducated still.

I know theres a middle ground of course, but given the choice, id deport rather than condone in the future.

I have another example and its racist and you guys will hate it. Here we go:

American slavery started centuries ago and ended legally in 1865. These freed slaves are decendants of africans. They were freed and undereducated, many going to work as cotton pickers for low wages opposed to none. There was also the corruption and acceptance period (racism) that took years to go away.
There was the 'back to africa' movement. Granted it would send these people back to DISTANT relatives as their known ancestors were long gone. Some went, most did not. I personally feel that ECONOMICALLY and im not being racist here, but that America's mistake was not a forced shipping of freed slaves back to their ancestor's land. And an option to come back to america through the proper channels legally (forget for a minute the red tape and cost).

Yeah its 2am and im blitzed tired, kirant i gave you every loophole to pick at but I hope you understand the bulk of what Im getting at. DACA, welfare and slavery should never have existed in the first place. I realize if daca is ended, we will have a new batch of people who will bark about governmental entitlement akin to slave descendants, but people will always try and exploit things. in the long run, shipping daca people back will cost trillions less than spanning a new generation and doing this case by case if you look into the 'total' cost.

the reality is, no matter what you do, ALL children pay for the mistakes of their parents. children do not pay for the 'sins' of their parents, that's what baptism is for. Are they gonna get deported cause of their parents? if theyre under 18, of course. send their parents back, the kids gotta go with em. see "elian gonzales" - america botched that up pretty bad, well Janet Reno did.

and always remember. the ultimate decision is gonna be debated over money. always is.

im also exhausted and on my 13th day of straight work without a day off, my compassion will show up in the morning im simply arguing the opposite of you right now cause you love the debate and you already have a retalliation for all this anyway :P
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Old 09-14-2017, 06:36 AM   #226
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I personally don't buy the comparison as it's flawed to the core (the individuals on DACA are employed and actively seek employment based on the numbers shown), but let's go.

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A stupid bitch (not a smart girl, a stupid bitch) goes and hoes herself out. She ends up with 4 kids from 4 guys who skipped the country, are in jail, whatever. She gets a check from the government for each kid. More than enough, most of which she blows on herself. Its not the kid's fault their mom is stupid.
If she blows it on herself solely, then it's a matter for Child Services. The Children should be brought into protective custody and she lose the cheques.

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However if you can have one kid and make 14,000$ a year (compare to a job where you might end up making 12,000$ a year) why the hell would you work?
Children are damn expensive. The numbers above only way this works economically is if you can raise a child on <$2000/year.

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Yeah its gonna suck, do you say its not the kids fault?
Another invalid comparison as the children who are in the above can be put into foster care. The children can be, to go by the terms in my last post, "spared" from the sins even if we punish a parent who seeks children purely for economic benefit (and give the children unsatisfactory living situations).

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I understand your sympathy but it never should have been constructed this way in the first place (I am an advocate for disability AND unemployment insurance but NOT welfare).
While I think we can debate whether the deferral should have existed in the first place is a valid discussion, that's not what we're deciding based on the events with DACA.

The debate is whether the nation of the USA is better served ending the program now or letting it burn itself out over the next stretch of time (as the conditions of the act mean that there will no new applications soon).

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and though it may hurt, it shouldn't have been done in the first place.
Again, not the debate.

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Granted it would send these people back to DISTANT relatives as their known ancestors were long gone.
Please provide a link on the Back to Africa movement. The only thing I can find about it was a movement within the African American community to move back to Africa. It was a popular movement within the community because it was grassroots originating by the community.

---

Post is a bit short. On the road, so I just tried to hit the key points.
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Old 09-14-2017, 06:37 AM   #227
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For some reason, the server I'm using doesn't let me edit posts.

Please read "Children are damn expensive. The numbers above only way this works economically is if you can raise a child on <$2000/year."

As

"Children are damn expensive. The numbers above only way this works economically is if you can raise a child on <$2000/year (plus economic benefit)"

Edit - Huh. Edit works this time.

Reports are that Trump opted to work with Democrats on the DACA program.

If the reports are true, the "dreamers" (the illegal immigrant children filing for deferred action in DACA) will be protected. Additionally, while border security will be increased at the USA/Mexico border, no border wall will be proposed.
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Old 09-27-2017, 12:16 AM   #228
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Decided to let this all play out before it was worth the update.

Germany
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Chancellor Angela Merkel has won an unprecedented 4th term. This was the first time she's really been opposed though it's a huge step up from the beginning of the year, where her plan to leave an open door policy for refugees nearly killed any chance of her winning again.

An extreme "right wing" group, which calls black Germans non-Germans and denies any form of climate change existing, did pick up a bunch of seats (many inside Germany instantly drawing comparisons to the NSDAP, or Nazi party). Merkel almost seemed apologetic at that part of the result.


Spain
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It sounds like there's a bit of a secession crisis going on. One region in Spain, Catalonia, has been seeking separation from Spain and was holding a non-binding referendum (widely expected to pass).

The problem is Catalonia is a huge economic sector in Spain and the Spanish government isn't happy that it's looking to form its own country. It declared any votes on it illegal...but the area still wants to hold the vote anyways. So in come the police to arrest those in charge of the separation movement and restrict any votes.


USA and healthcare
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It seems like, at least for a year, the idea of impacting ACA is dead.

Two technical points to explain the process:

- Normally, bills without filibusters require 60 votes to pass in the USA Senate

- However, it is possible to get a 50 vote bill passed without filibuster under a process called "reconciliation". It's basically a way of shuffling funding around to reconcile spending.

The USA's Congress passed a bill asking for reconciliation as soon as Trump took office. That gave them until September 30th to pass a reconciliation bill for proposed tax changes and the Republican side decided they would change ACA to make it happen.

Now, I've spoken many times on the attempts to remove ACA. They haven't gone well...and, unless they could pass a change by the 30th, they'd likely need to win over 8 Democrat Senators (some are willing to adjust it, but any change there would want likely loses the more conservative Republicans).

So the Republicans tried one last shot at making changes...but couldn't get enough Republican Senators on board. Republicans John McCain, Paul Rand, Susan Collins, and Ted Cruz all rejected the bill for their own reasons. Without the ability to get a majority to pass the vote (or even 50 to let Pence cast the vote for the Republicans), the bill was pulled with no plans to make a snap vote before the 30th.

So that's where things are right now: ACA is intact as Republicans couldn't line up a plan that agreed with all the Republicans. They would need to win 8 Democrats over to do a repeal, an incredibly difficult procedure without losing their more conservative Senators.

There are other ways to revive repealing ACA...though it's all "start from square 0" process where they'd have to pass a budget once more.

There is also the "nuclear option" many have discussed: changing Senate rules such that there is no "filibuster" threshold and make it such that any bill requires 51 votes only. This would be all out war and would signal to me a rapid approach to the Roman Republic's collapse where rules are used for political gain as oppose to the actual intention of the law.


USA and hurricanes
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Poor Puerto Rico. And before you tell me Puerto Rico isn't really part of the USA, I'll remind you that Puerto Ricans hold USA citizenship.

It was hammered by a class 4 hurricane (Maria, which got downgraded close to arrival). Almost the entire island is without power and they're looking at a 30 year rebuild process. Aid has also been slow to arrive (and, to my annoyance, the USHS Comfort, probably the premier mobile hospital unit in existence, hasn't been called in despite the fact that Puerto Rico's hospitals were the hardest hit).

There was also almost no commentary until today from Trump about the country and its damage. The only thing they heard until today? Puerto Rico is struggling because of too much debt and it was hurting their recovery efforts. What was he doing in the meantime? Well, see below


USA and sports (I'd like to stop, but seriously, this is the world we live in now and I'm not even at North Korea yet...I miss the days when each month didn't feel like a year)
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So, in case it isn't well known beforehand: before sports games in Canada/USA, it is tradition to have the audience and the players stand for the national anthem of the hosting countries. For the NHL games comprising of both a Canadian and an American team, for example, both the anthems are sung and the flags unfurled for the occasion.

In the NFL last season, a quarterback (Colin Kaepernick) chose to not stand for the anthem and instead kneeled to make a statement (that he wouldn't stand for a flag which would still represent so much racial division). Not a huge deal and, as the same happened with Tim Tebow (who would pray before plays), his talent wasn't enough to really push all the controversy aside. Kaepernick is without contract and most people thought the story would fade away.

Then Trump decided to dump lots of gasoline on some smouldering embers.

Out of seemingly nowhere, Trump decided to state that he wanted to see NFL owners pull players who were not standing for the USA's national anthem (despite it being basically only a small handful of players doing it) and hinted that the lack of standing for the national anthem was the reason for declining NFL ratings.

This went over well.

I'm kidding of course. Almost the entire NFL community hated it. Almost all of them saw it as a right to peaceful protest under the First Amendment of the US Constitution. Many teams and their owners (most of them Trump supporting) either refused to stand for the next game or linked arms to show solidarity against the sentiment. While there is some sentiment that the players are offending others by doing so, you're also hearing a vast majority of military veterans and others in high positions of power claiming it's the right of players to protest if they so wish.

At the same time, the NBA's Stephen Curry declined an invitation to visit the White House, citing political differences. Trump decided to rescind an invitation to the entire Golden State Warriors team for that. That also went over well. And by well, I mean it fuelled more of the above paragraph.

(Aside - Tim Thomas did the same to Obama when the Boston Bruins won the Stanley Cup, claiming that DC was trampling over civilian rights. Obama never attacked back)

How does this link to the hurricane story above? Well, it also has sucked up all of Trump's attention. Over the weekend, he made 20 comments about the NFL and sports as a whole over the incident. He made 1 on Puerto Rico, an actual catastrophe that's happening and is heavily affecting people's lives. And that was to complain about the island's debt.


USA and North Korea
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More of the same, but it's still stupid. North Korea and the USA are playing a continual game of chicken, egging the other one into more ridiculous statements. If one of the two knew how to chill in any way, shape, or form, we wouldn't be here. But we are and now we have North Korea claiming that the USA declared war on them while the USA keeps flying planes closer and closer to North Korea just to point out it can.


And there's more (such as the same "Clinton using personal e-mail server" thing coming to light for both Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump), but I gave myself a time limit for writing this and time's up.
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Old 09-27-2017, 12:25 AM   #229
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Yeah these ungrateful athletes making tons and tons of money playing a game, can't even salute the flag. They're rich, I say if you wanna leave america, there's the door. Heck I offered to pay for angry broke americans one way tickets, these football players make lots.

Overturn obamacare now!
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Old 09-27-2017, 01:24 AM   #230
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Yeah these ungrateful athletes making tons and tons of money playing a game, can't even salute the flag. They're rich, I say if you wanna leave america, there's the door. Heck I offered to pay for angry broke americans one way tickets, these football players make lots.
On the other hand, one could also point out that they're exercising their rights. They see the USA as a mixed bag to them and want to highlight that, as good as the nation may be, it is has negatives which the country needs to fix.

Being your desired nation of citizenship does not absolve it of all the sins they may see. And I think that's a key point here: a country may be where I want to live but it doesn't mean it's perfect.

Also key here is that most people aren't protesting against the USA itself. I think it was less than 5 were kneeling before Trump's comments...and the only reasonably prominent one was Kaepernick.

This would suggest that most are offended by Trump's comments that the players don't have the right to kneel. This frames it more around the First Amendment right to protest (even if the protest includes going against traditions on flags and anthems).

Incidentally, I think the worship of flags is mostly a USA thing. I swear, road trips in the USA make it feel like your national passtime is finding the biggest flag possible to put on your land.

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Overturn obamacare now!
Need either to go "nuclear" on Senate rules or need to "win" 8 Democrats to pass it before next year. The Republican party couldn't organize itself once again and won't pass anything before Friday, meaning that the 60 vote rules come back into effect.

And if they do this before next year, they run the risk of not being able to cut taxes. You can only pass one reconciliation bill a year and the Republican hope was to cut ACA this year, lower tax rates next year. With the 2018 elections after that, the Republicans are likely to lose one of the houses, meaning they'll likely struggle to get the tax cut through.

Either way, the Republican plans post-Obama seem to be crumbling, bar some pretty drastic measures. They could easily have to pick between cutting taxes and repealing ACA (assuming they can get their plan executed next year...something that might not happen given that there has 10 months this year to do it and failed...and that's on top of 7 years of planning this as their first action post-Obama).
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