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Old 06-25-2017, 07:39 AM   #121
kirant
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Originally Posted by Thane of Cawdor View Post
calling the republican party the treason party, ya mean half the country?
Is calling the Republican Party as a whole a party of traitors a bit much at this point? Yeah. There are many standard politicians who had no interest and are outright offended by even the possibility of this action happening.

But it's also true we're living in concerning times if you live in the USA.

If the rumours stem true in the way they've been heading so far, willingly accepted and colluded with the Russian interference in the election is flirting with treason. And these types of allegations are being investigated all the way up to the President of the USA. Which would mean that the Republicans willingly involved are in many books traitors and are holding some very powerful positions (even if we assume Trump is just a "useful idiot"...someone who isn't involved but will act in ways beneficial to you).

These are grave allegations and even the possibility of them being true should be worrying from either of your parties.
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Old 06-25-2017, 06:41 PM   #122
Thane of Cawdor
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Let me tell ya something about america. We are traitors, its how america was formed. If something is morally wrong we fight to change it, strongest wins. Its how its always been
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Old 06-25-2017, 07:49 PM   #123
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Joe Cannon on Cannonfire:

Blame Obama (for HRC's loss)
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Old 06-25-2017, 09:43 PM   #124
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Let me tell ya something about america. We are traitors, its how america was formed. If something is morally wrong we fight to change it, strongest wins. Its how its always been
And by strongest wins, you mean "get help from France", right?

Also, your best defence against "we could be getting bent over by foreign interests" is "we rebelled against foreign interests"?

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Old 06-27-2017, 06:33 AM   #125
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No really at this point I'm just trying to see if I can get you to give me the last word, hehe. Ya won't cause you can't, also most of my points are given late at night and not thought out. My point is I'll default to the old king system. strongest wins, and lots of the time it doesn't matter whos right or whos telling the truth. if trump actually did allow hacking and he doesnt get impeached, he did a better job than nixon.
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Old 06-27-2017, 10:16 PM   #126
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luckily trump said he will bring production back to the united states. as far as i know, this might give 'fatcats' the oppertunity to employ the average american again.

also, when talking about the republican party, i think its wrong to calssify them all as fatcats. i see video on youtube where people of all social classes cheer him on during his speech.

now a genuine question for you: if i am correct, the republican party wants to cut taxes, wouldnt this allow poorer people to save up more money and for example create a better future for their children?
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Old 06-27-2017, 10:44 PM   #127
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Well farmers have been leaving the United States in droves and we now have unheard-of amounts of crops left to rot. I hope he does something about that soon!
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Old 06-27-2017, 10:58 PM   #128
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Yes Snap. Moreso it is the 'capitalists' who cheer him on, which I am. As a global economy, we outsource jobs to other countries sometimes, as production is cheaper. If you could drop costs in america, most companies would prefer to employ americans if its the same price. The issue is if its cheaper to outsource, some companies will.

The taxes they want to cut is for large business who already do outsource. If you make it cheaper to produce here, we will. As a country on a GLOBAL scale, we are more white collar. However there are still millions of blue collar workers, we can't as a country become all business people, we do need physical labor.

Now there is also a push for a 'flat tax' which is like a 15% tax on everyone's total income. This will reduce total government income as a whole. However, those who are under poverty (specifically if you make under 6000$ a year for example) you pay 0$ in taxes, ie you get a complete refund at the beginning of next year. Those who are that poor will, under a flat tax, pay more.
Typically those who make 6000$ a year are kids living with parents or on some sort of welfare subsidization as poverty is classed somewhere in the vicinity of 14000$ a year.

I really only used that term fatcats for KC's sake :P

Misao, I agree with the crops. I will venture an attack on our government, specifically the EPA. The ethanol we put in gas is extracted primarily from corn. Those who extract this could spend this time/money instead to grow more crops. It is in fact cheaper to extract ethanol from say weed-grass for far less money. But we have this corn infrastructure (im not gonna go all hillbilly here but corn is a LARGE factor in the US economy if you research it). So i for one vote that we ditch the entire ethanol industry. From a car guy standpoint, ethanol has less BTUs (power) than gasoline, and tho we water down our gas with ethanol, your fuel economy goes down, therefore consumption increases (and sometimes prices go up cause of this, gasoline does NOT follow the standard supply-demand chain that 'normal' goods do.). So your MPG goes down and you burn more, doesnt help the environment as much as we think. I am for progress of better engines, more hybrids, fuel cells, etc. But i would agree when you look at the numbers, we should ditch most ethanol-from-corn extraction and go back to farming the rest of it, and if we overproduce, it can be sold internationally at times. Its more profitable and better off overall for farmers to specialize as they have been doing.
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Old 06-27-2017, 11:46 PM   #129
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as far as i know, this might give 'fatcats' the oppertunity to employ the average american again.
This would be the working theory, yes. Of course, the actual dynamics at play are much more complex.

The current model which Trump wishes to employ this, to the best of our knowledge (as he's been unable to pass basically anything related to it), is through a two-pronged attack of tariffs and tax cuts. Again, that's theory.

The issues are currently that the evidence is mounting that "trickle-down", the notion that you quote above, is contested at best. Economic policy is more art than science...we have plenty of example to go both ways on the subject so I'll leave it at that. Getting into examples just invites us to spend pages debating whether each point is valid and I don't think any of us really want that.

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also, when talking about the republican party, i think its wrong to calssify them all as fatcats. i see video on youtube where people of all social classes cheer him on during his speech.
I would argue you're right. It's very important to understand that the average person of [whatever political alignment you don't like] is a lot more like you than you think.

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now a genuine question for you: if i am correct, the republican party wants to cut taxes, wouldnt this allow poorer people to save up more money and for example create a better future for their children?
In theory, there are ways this could happen. In the way the Republican Party is going about it, no.

You have the basics down pat: lower taxes = lower spending on giving the government stuff = more saved money.

But there are key assumptions that break down:
- The USA's tax income for the average family (about 46 000 ) is already quite low at the federal level (average family of 4 has about 470 if you have all the deductions you can).
- Those "poorer people" don't earn enough to see a tax change under Trump's proposed tax plans (117.3 )
- The way the Republican party is proposing to pay for them is to cut services to the "poorer people" and overwhelm the savings they would get. In particular, the cuts are to health services for the "poorer" and elderly.
- The ultimate "winners" of the proposed changes are the wealthy who didn't really use the government programs but now pay less. It's not hard to see why people view the current proposed changes as a tax cut to the wealthy on the backs of the lower income and the elderly.

If you want a simple version of the above, the vlogbrothers actually put together one of the best summaries I have heard:


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Well farmers have been leaving the United States in droves and we now have unheard-of amounts of crops left to rot. I hope he does something about that soon!
Welcome to the era of machines. The auto industry and agricultural industry are the first to feel the brunt of what we'll likely see throughout our lives: machines doing a job better than people, so fewer people are being used to take care of a given area.
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Old 06-28-2017, 07:18 AM   #130
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Dude, don't just give up like that. Machinization has altered labor since the 1800s, doesn't mean people arent needed to run said machines. Regardless, that's not a reason for unharvested crops. By your deduction, we'd have more crops harvested and less left to rot. It comes down to ecomonics, ie profitability, which can be floored or topped out by laws sometimes.

And you guys have got to act like "trickle-down" is some hocus pocus theory that doesn't work. When Hillary said that at the debate I did gawk.

Trickle-down economics is HOW an economy like America works, there's no guesswork to it. Joe Billionare moves to america and spends his money. He then gives money to the workers to who assemble his yacht, his plane, his cars, and all the people who maintain them. Furthermore, buying those expensive, fast-depreciating goods makes the companies who manufacturer them crank out more to make the newest model. In short, trickle-down is the way big money comes back into the economy.

Think of it this way for the science people. As matter cannot be created or destroyed, neither can money (sort of). If someone exploits people and becomes a billionaire, hes gonna spend that money, and even if its banked, it is then loaned out to entrepreneurs. When that dude dies, that money either goes to a government (tax refund or public-sector jobs created) or willed to a relative (spent on stuff for an inheritor).

-Remember kirant, this is a basic analogy, don't think too hard spend hours trying to show its flaws, its 2:30am and a basic teaching aid :) -

Even with a global apocalypse, paper money might be worthless, but gold will still be a currency, as will skills and the refinement of new items (through a new stone age so to speak). So I should say wealth cannot be created or destroyed? Sort of how like except for a rare few sattelites all the matter on earth from aeons ago is still here in Earth territory. Again, except that sattelite that actually left the Milky way that was launched decades ago.

As some guessed my education was in economics. And tis politics that could be losely defined as the control, operation and regulation of producers and consumers. I for one favor a smaller government as economies will, by nature, even out. Governments could, with laws, remain static but so long as progress occurs on earth, the economy is ever changing.

I lean toward capitalism over communism because it occurs for mankind's natural selfishness and let's those who work harder make more. By the previous theory I just said, in a non-growing economy, if one gains he must gain by taking something from another. In a utopian commune, everyone takes and gives at the same rate.
Communism (and socialism by degree) work within a commune, a group of people who agree to live in such static commune. Meaning communism and socialism work in small scales where everyone gets along. Communism has never been successful in a widescale practice in a whole country. The inherant problem is that for a country to remain soverign, you need a structure. Therefore someone has to operate and run, unless you are a true-wide oligarchy, every communism has a "leader" so you got the big dog and everyone else does as there told, works X job for the same money. If everyone is okay with that and living that way, cool. But with a global economy and social networking, all it takes is one doctor to say "i could make more than minimum wage like my janitor?" and the balance is upset.
Capitalism, while having the 'ability' to allow for solo corruption, with every state acting as its own militia, I find to be the "best compromise". It does allow for exploitation, but then again from our eyes, so does 70% taxation or full wage-control. So capitalism, in practice, is so far the best economy.

I base this on my belief that America is the largest economy on earth and my opinion the best country for opportunity on earth if you are self motivated.

In case you socialist dudes wanted to know why I think the way I do. I'd choose "the prince" over Karl Marx or North Korea. Murica, F*CK YEAH
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