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Old 12-14-2017, 08:30 PM   #261
kirant
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Originally Posted by Thane of Cawdor View Post
Those who favor abortion want to ban abortions...
I have no clue how you got that out of it.

This was passed by a group who dislike abortions.

I'd also note that I would be unsure if it holds up in court. The ACLU challenged the same style law in Indiana (with the courts agreeing with them and removing the law).

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-o...-idUSKBN1E736O

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So you call a hit man to kill an ex-wife, hitman dies, and YOU not the hitman end up getting 20 years in jail. you didn't pull the trigger, but you made the call.
You assume that fetuses are given personhood. This is something that isn't true in the eyes of the law. As of right now, there is no provision for that either.

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KC and kirant, I do want your viewpoints on this one, and not just cause I think this time you're probably gonna agree with me
I would say I'm fine with the way the law is right now. In terms of legal matters, I feel we shouldn't distinguish between whether or not the child has a learning disability.

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Also Kirant if I may correct on biasing - The Trump election polls as I saw, a very large number were taken from colleges and government buildings,
True, but they also publish their polling methods. Most are taken off campus and many rely on phone calls to landlines - a technology which favours the older crowd. Keep in mind that older crowds also favour the Republican party over the Democrats in the USA.

In fact, the best aggregate site I have found (538 blog, run by a man who predicted the 2014 election results correctly for all 50 states) was one of the few to give Trump a "fighting chance". While most sites gave a 90%+ to Clinton, he gave Trump ~30% chance to win and was quick to warn that Trump was within a polling error away from winning.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com...tion-forecast/

----

Incidentally, the FCC has opted to repeal Net Neutrality for the USA.

Congrats I guess USA. You got exactly what you voted into office: business friendly President making business friendly decisions and letting the parts he can influence overturn Obama era rulings.

Edit - I should point out that this is heading to courts now. This is where it was stopped last time if memory serves.

Edit 2 - Hm...interesting. Sounds like the vote was 3 Republicans voting to repeal Net Neutrality against 2 Democrats wanting to keep it.

Quote:
KVUE News @KVUE 1m1 minute ago

BREAKING: The FCC votes on party lines to undo sweeping Obama-era `net neutrality' rules that guaranteed equal access to internet, @AP reports.
Yup.

http://deadline.com/2017/12/fcc-repe...es-1202227123/

Quote:
Jessica Rosenworcel and Mignon Clyburn, the two Democrats on the commission, strongly disagreed. In voting against the measure today, they both firmly indicated their position by stating, I dissent.
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Old 12-15-2017, 12:11 AM   #262
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Rest in Pepperoni Net Neutrality.


Fortunately it seems incredibly likely that this will head straight to the courts, but without blocking the actual effects of the decision. Additionally, there appears to be some movement in the Senate about repealing the FCC's decision, which, while likely again going to come down to party lines, is at least something.

Hope they don't set the price of the LSSF package too high :P


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Congrats I guess USA. You got exactly what you voted into office: business friendly President making business friendly decisions and letting the parts he can influence overturn Obama era rulings.
The best part of the whole thing is that I think it was polled that something like 80% of people didn't want NN repealed? In addition to the plethora of anecdotes indicating that both their democrat and republican friends alike weren't in favor.
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Old 12-15-2017, 12:29 AM   #263
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Originally Posted by Gondolin View Post
Additionally, there appears to be some movement in the Senate about repealing the FCC's decision, which, while likely again going to come down to party lines, is at least something.
I think, unless they can fast track Doug Jones in, you're likely looking at needing 3 Republican votes to flip (as Pence will probably cast the tie-breaker for the passing).

I don't see any of the typical dissenting voices moving against it though. Susan Collins sounds like she might be willing to cross the floor for the vote, making the split 51-49. But then you either need Jones and another crossing or two more Republicans.

Murkowski would have been one I thought of, but she's on board with reversing it. McCain is probably unlikely too having basically been on the side of all other Republicans with exception of the ACA.

I think the only hope in Senate is to have abandon the vote (which is a Hail Mary at best) or to get it stopped in court. I just don't see a way for it to get halted in Senate. Even if you fast track Jones in, and have Collins cross, you've got a 50-50 tie...in which case Pence comes in and agrees with it.

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Originally Posted by Gondolin View Post
The best part of the whole thing is that I think it was polled that something like 80% of people didn't want NN repealed? In addition to the plethora of anecdotes indicating that both their democrat and republican friends alike weren't in favor.
Yup. It's a horribly unpopular move. 83% support is what I've heard.

But at the same time, that's the same level of opposition the tax reform bill received and it passed with only 1 opposition vote from the Republicans (Corker*, for reasons of it increasing USA debt). So I think Republicans will vote as a block again.

* - Edit because I had the wrong Senator before

It's fairly silly how this has gone. I get a strong sense that when people voted for Trump to "drain the swamp", this lack of representation is what people wanted to remove. I mean, I can't speak for those who live in the USA, but this feels like you guys aren't getting representation from your government. The millions of complaints submitted about the removal of net neutrality seem pretty worthless.

They're just running off and doing what niche groups (in this case, large businesses) are asking them to do as oppose to acting in what the people feel is in their best interests.

Edit -

I mean, I could get behind the idea that Pai and the rest really aren't elected but assigned by the President of the USA. Pai's position as Chairman was at whim of Trump. Sure, we can argue Trump had no clue that maybe the Brendan Carr (the new Republican FCC commissioner) would be as willing as he was to form ranks and vote out net neutrality.

But there's no whiff that anybody else in government seems to care about that lack of support in the populace. At least, nobody with enough voting power to say no.

Democrats seem on board with killing this repeal dead. Of course, it's easier to say no when you're the minority of course but it seems like there's nobody willing to cross the floor really. Again, the only Senator who seems interested is Collins...and I'm sure multiple states would be overwhelmingly interested in keeping Net Neutrality.

It makes me wonder what the other Republican Senators are thinking at this point.
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Old 12-15-2017, 01:59 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by kirant View Post
I don't see any of the typical dissenting voices moving against it though. Susan Collins sounds like she might be willing to cross the floor for the vote, making the split 51-49. But then you either need Jones and another crossing or two more Republicans.
While I don't know Collins' true motives, her last minute statement today doesn't inspire much confidence in her switching sides if it were to come to a vote. Though certainly the republicans could make someone look good by switching sides, assuming the rest of them stick together.

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It's fairly silly how this has gone. I get a strong sense that when people voted for Trump to "drain the swamp", this lack of representation is what people wanted to remove. I mean, I can't speak for those who live in the USA, but this feels like you guys aren't getting representation from your government. The millions of complaints submitted about the removal of net neutrality seem pretty worthless.
This is the million dollar question, isn't it? I personally view the central issue as being one of a fundamental disconnect. A disconnect between sides, a disconnect between information, a disconnect between beliefs and needs, and so on.

There are people who so view the 'other party' as some kind of evil, that if you change your campaign strategy from 'here's what I'll do to help you, and here's why it works,' to, 'you wouldn't rather have an <X> elected, would you?,' it becomes significantly easier in my mind to justify anything you do in congress with 'well, this might not be the best, but it's still pretty good, and infinitely better than an <X> would have done, right?'

When you view your fellow countrymen as not teachers, doctors, clerks, soldiers, neighbors, etc., and instead as some caricature of a lunatic, something is going completely wrong. And it seems like the only way to effectively fight this is by doing the same thing (either that or hoping someone looks in a mirror)- I've heard 'make sure you vote R, we need all the votes we can get!' just as often as 'make sure you vote D, we need all the votes we can get!' Personally though, I do not see both sides as being 'equally bad,' but I do recognize this manner of discourse is iffy at best.

This and other such disconnects (not even mentioning what is increasingly likely to be interference by a hostile foreign national government) contribute greatly to the mess of misrepresentation I think we see.


I have a very hard time picturing a happy future for the political system of the U.S., but who knows what the future holds.
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Old 12-15-2017, 03:18 AM   #265
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Meh, I don't think a lot about abortion. I figure if it is wrong, then I'm already doing my part to prevent abortions, by keeping my pants zipped.

Meanwhile, about the Moore vs Jones election:

I've never met this woman, but I love her already.
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Two snaps up! ^_^
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Old 12-15-2017, 06:34 AM   #266
kirant
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While I don't know Collins' true motives, her last minute statement today doesn't inspire much confidence in her switching sides if it were to come to a vote. Though certainly the republicans could make someone look good by switching sides, assuming the rest of them stick together.
For sure I doubt it's sincere and I bet, like with her votes on taxes previously, she'll move back to letting it pass when time gets closer. I'm trying to think of outs though.

Even in that best case scenario, I can't think of another Republican who would move to block this.

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There are people who so view the 'other party' as some kind of evil, that if you change your campaign strategy from 'here's what I'll do to help you, and here's why it works,' to, 'you wouldn't rather have an <X> elected, would you?,' it becomes significantly easier in my mind to justify anything you do in congress with 'well, this might not be the best, but it's still pretty good, and infinitely better than an <X> would have done, right?'
I've come to the same conclusion myself. Partisan politics and a two-party system is a very quick way to make things horrible very quick.

I've mentioned to some of my friends that you have about 30-35% of each side in the USA who, would vote for "their side" even if their side was an axe murderer running down the streets making horror movie level puns.

When you have a solid base like that, you can turn every issue into "us vs them". There is simply no middle ground and if you like something, you automatically dislike the entire opponent's platform. I personally blame a huge amount of that on the inability to garner a legitimate third party. Having one prevents the automatic "well, if you like [x], you must also like [y], [z], [a]" that you see in the USA.

Edit - As an example I just read off the cesspool that is YouTube comment sections:

Person A: If my senators are for for this, I'm switching to the Democrats.
Person B: I don't like removing Net Neutrality either, but switching parties is stupid.
Person A: But Net Neutrality is important to me and they no longer represent my values.
Person B: But then you stand for higher taxes and more government control. Even if you dislike their move on Net Neutrality, you have to remain Republican.

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I have a very hard time picturing a happy future for the political system of the U.S., but who knows what the future holds.
It's because of the fairly archaic system in my mind. Your system treats you as 50 separate mini-countries which get together on big ticket issues like highways and military. However, the reality is that you're closer to Canada: 50 small territories which make up one country.

Your system would make more sense if you were like the EU (that is, you thought of yourself not as "American", but as "Texan" or "Californian"). But as is, you really basically exist the same way the provinces in Canada exist and politicians leverage the hell out of that system

One thing worth noting is that your constitution is kind of held up in patchwork. Quite of it feels antiquated compared to worldwide standards. Election of judges is one of the most asinine things I've ever seen. I can't even think of another time where judicial elections are anything but a formality (Switzerland and Japan judges are appointed but face "retention elections" if they populace feels they're doing a bad job).

I think you guys are governing under the oldest operating constitution. The only reason you guys don't seem keen on adjusting it is some appeal to tradition and how "things have always been" or some "spirit of the constitution". The world has changed since the late 1700s and I think it's fair to say that some overhauling is needed.

Though I'm sure nobody will ever go and do any of this because it's political suicide.
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Old 12-16-2017, 12:38 AM   #267
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It's because of the fairly archaic system in my mind. Your system treats you as 50 separate mini-countries which get together on big ticket issues like highways and military. However, the reality is that you're closer to Canada: 50 small territories which make up one country.

Your system would make more sense if you were like the EU (that is, you thought of yourself not as "American", but as "Texan" or "Californian"). But as is, you really basically exist the same way the provinces in Canada exist and politicians leverage the hell out of that system
Yeah, I would agree. Problem with becoming more EU-like though is that unfortunately most states don't have nearly as strong an identity as they would like you to think they do. Sure you have outliers like Texas, or a region like 'The South,' but take my home state for example- we have Lincoln? and deep-dish (if you're in Chicago-land)? Overlay the massive emphasis on being 'American,' the 4th of July, and other misc. acts of patriotism, and it puts many states in this kind of weird position.


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I think you guys are governing under the oldest operating constitution. The only reason you guys don't seem keen on adjusting it is some appeal to tradition and how "things have always been" or some "spirit of the constitution". The world has changed since the late 1700s and I think it's fair to say that some overhauling is needed.

Though I'm sure nobody will ever go and do any of this because it's political suicide.
It's tough. Via amendments, the constitution can theoretically change to become anything, and combined with what is in reality not too bad of a base to work with, it's hard to advocate for sweeping reform without backlash. If any major changes are to come it would have to be after the country collectively sort of takes a step back from all the patriotism and patriotic imagery and rituals that go on.
Which isn't to say I think patriotism is inherently bad- if anything I wish the U.S. had an even richer history to delve into, but when the country is in a state where kneeling during the anthem at a sporting event is seen as some grave injustice, I think a reality check is in order.

But yes, surely the writers of the constitution weren't thinking of the globally connected network of computers and how it would shape the world 250 years ago, among all sorts of other things.
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Old 12-17-2017, 02:59 AM   #268
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Yeah, I would agree. Problem with becoming more EU-like though is that unfortunately most states don't have nearly as strong an identity as they would like you to think they do. Sure you have outliers like Texas, or a region like 'The South,' but take my home state for example- we have Lincoln? and deep-dish (if you're in Chicago-land)? Overlay the massive emphasis on being 'American,' the 4th of July, and other misc. acts of patriotism, and it puts many states in this kind of weird position.
This is exactly what I mean though - the USA's system is built with that "I'm Texan" first. Your government system is built on that kind of mindset.

What you describe is exactly how I see you: you call yourselves American first. That's pretty much Canada in a nutshell: we call ourselves Canadian first. We don't get together on big issues while dealing with all smaller ones within our province. We mostly ask guidance from the federal level.

Simply put, moving yourselves to a more Canadian system more than the current on you have would suit the situation better. It'll never happen, but transfer of many portfolios to the federal level would make things more effective.

To put it in fairly simple terms: Canadian systems are built with the assumption the federal government will handle it unless explicitly doled out to provinces. For example, the exact method of health care delivery is monitored federally (and budgets are set by how much the federal government will hand the provincial level systems) but where the hospitals are built and how the money is spent on each aspect is at the provincial level. Your system basically tells the federal government to screw off unless it's been previously written in for a federal oversight.

This extreme limitation makes much more sense if all the states are self-sustaining or feel distinct enough from each other state that there are major reasons why a more organized government can't oversee it. I mean, I could understand why you'd hand power to states for court appointments if, for sake of argument, Texas was basically another country entirely from Rhode Island...that is, you had a separate language, a vastly different population make up, a vastly different culture, and so on. Kind of like if you had Puerto Rico as a state. But everyone is similar enough culturally that this doesn't make sense.

(Of course, this all comes with the presumption that the federal level in the USA was actually doing its job. I keep saying this, but I get really ugly flashbacks of what I read about the end of the Roman Republic: gaming the system for sake of political gain and a lack of following spirit of the law. Which only makes sense as that's how the constitution was originally conceived).

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It's tough. Via amendments, the constitution can theoretically change to become anything, and combined with what is in reality not too bad of a base to work with, it's hard to advocate for sweeping reform without backlash.
That's the thing for me: It feels like your founding fathers were smart enough to realize that their world wasn't going to stay stagnant and wanted people to change the constitution as things fell out of date. But the reverence of them as all-intelligent leaders who knew exactly what they were doing seems to prevent even touching your constitution without extreme reason.

To compare, I don't think there's any real worship or love of our first Prime Minister. We have popular ones, one we like, and ones we hate...but none really that insulting them would result in a shouting match against you.

I mean, I find it amazing how rare it is I have calm Americans after telling them that George Washington wasn't a good tactical commander who bungled several key battles in the American Revolution. Was he brave as hell and an inspiring leader? Yeah. But he also seemed to develop plans far too complex to coordinate and almost sank his career as a general many times.

On the other end, I can't even think of a Prime Minister so romanticized that if I'd probably end up dead if I dare slander the name. Or even a general.

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If any major changes are to come it would have to be after the country collectively sort of takes a step back from all the patriotism and patriotic imagery and rituals that go on.
Precisely. I honestly don't get the whole "rah rah" part of the country. It's nice to see sometimes in smaller events (such as Olympic competitions) but it can blind you politically.

I wonder if it's a matter of political size: I've heard many times that lots of people in the USA don't hold passports because they don't feel a need to: the USA is their whole world. Therefore, there's just so little they end up seeing that they feel like the USA is the centre of the universe.

It worries me that the stereotype of Americans as "ignorant of the world" may play into this (the depressing aspect being the statistic I heard as a child that about 20-25% of Americans couldn't find Canada on a map of the USA and Canada. Old articles like this worry me too: https://news.nationalgeographic.com/...perSurvey.html ). That there is a lot of truth to that and that they don't realize how big the rest of the world may be. I mean, I see shades of it in the way some people react to Trump's withdrawal from the international stage (and that their direct withdrawal leaves a power vacuum that the one-party rule Chinese could easily fill). But that's a thought for another time I think.

---
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Anyways, there are strong signs that the current tax reform in the USA will pass before December 22nd. This would be a massive rush job of a bill. If we contrast the ACA's formation:

- 44 public hearings were set for the ACA. From what I can tell, this tax reform had none.

- It took the ACA about 9 months from house to signature by Obama. This will be about a month from house to signature by Trump.

(Side note - I'd be uncomfortable with passing any piece of major legislation this quickly. If you told me the ACA took 1 month to pass through both of your houses, I'd be mashing the "read the damn thing" button as well)

With a hilariously low popularity in the 20%s ( https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/tax...ard/1512504640 ), the bill is just as popular as the health care reform.

Not to mentioned the whole 1.5 trillion dollar debt spike it'll cause. Or the fact that it's full of random tax breaks to appeal to those voting on the bill (See: Bob Corker - https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-c...sting-hairball ).

Even better: if you presume that the economy grows because of it, even the suggested amount by Republicans won't make up the deficit.

https://www.cbpp.org/research/federa...oponents-claim



That said, I think it's now or never for the Republicans. With McCain ill and Session's spot being replaced with a Democrat, there is almost no room in the future to ram this type of bill through.


Ha. You actually got me to use Orwellian. Good job, USA.

Spoiler: show
So, I find this really amusing. Well, I would if it wasn't grating as hell.

The man which some people saw as a champion of free speech is asking the CDC to avoid key terms in communication.

Included in them is the ever important "evidence-based". It's pretty much used in all scientific study. Also in there is "science-based", "fetus", and "vulnerable".

It's so prevailing that they can't even state it's "based on scientific studies".

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com...now-forbidden/

I don't get to say this...ever really...but this is legitimately Orwellian. There is a clear desire in controlling the debate and communication through word choice. So, congrats USA...I guess. You provided an actual example of Orwellian movements. And, distinguishing this from simple changes in culture (such as replacement of "retarded" with "mental handicap"), the use of these terms undermine and manipulate the exact argument that the CDC would want to make if they made an argument based on evidence.

This is legitimately frustrating. There is an obvious attempt to manipulate the arguments made by the CDC here when you recommend replacing hard evidence such as evidence based reasoning with, and I quote, "CDC bases its recommendations on science in consideration with community standards and wishes".
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Old 12-17-2017, 06:03 AM   #269
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That tax bill is a good thing. You never considered that next year maybe the plan is to start cutting spending. Our taxes are too high, yes, I agree. But our expenses (government) is too big and costly. so we need to cut spending. I'm not worried cause I understand global business and I know what can and will happen, so no need to fret over here. I think the reason you guys in other countries are worried is cause putting America first means that maybe Trump doesn't care what happens elsewhere, his country is here.
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Old 12-17-2017, 07:15 AM   #270
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That tax bill is a good thing. You never considered that next year maybe the plan is to start cutting spending.
Ha. You assume Congress will cut spending. This new tax code pretty much lines up with what Trump said he wanted over the election campaign with no major changes in spending (outside a bump up to the military).

And of those where he promised to cut spending, he hasn't (such as suspension of funding to sanctuary cities and cutting spending on your space exploration program).

I think you'll be sorely disappointed by the results.

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I'm not worried cause I understand global business and I know what can and will happen, so no need to fret over here.
Skipping over the fact that it might qualify as r/iamverysmart material, it's a very poor presumption to believe that only those who don't "understand global business" will worry.

Intelligent people exist on both sides of the debate. The argument of Keynesian versus classical economics is one that people still hotly debate to this day at all levels. Solid evidence that one works and the other doesn't is mostly confirmation bias. In fact, one can easily skew the data to make it suggest that the Democrats have piloted the economy better than the Republicans ( https://imgur.com/a/JhqSi ).

So this is a topic without a real definitive answer. We have cases which say they work. We have cases which say they don't work.

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I think the reason you guys in other countries are worried is cause putting America first means that maybe Trump doesn't care what happens elsewhere, his country is here.
And it's fair for him to decide to prioritize the USA over others.

However, he's also unseating the USA from key positions politically. And the group replacing them is often China.

USA backs down on CO2 emissions? China steps up.

USA backs out of TPP? China brings people together.

You guys are ceding lots of international presence...and most of it to a one-party regime.

So here's a question to the USA: You guys aren't big enough to take on the whole world on your own. Do you want to live in one where you guys can dictate the global atmosphere or will you let China do it for you?
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