Favorite Games for Not-So-Fortunate Systems

[Shiraishi-kun]

There have been a metric crapton of video game systems released ever since the days of the Atari 2600. Colecovision, Genesis, NES, Master System, TurboGrafx-16 and so on. But of course, not every system was a winner. Colecovision was dwarfed by Atari's 2600. SEGA's Master System was no match for the NES despite a more powerful processor. For every successful game console, there are at least three failures to match it. But even the worst of systems had some good titles, am I right?

For those of you that played them, this is where you can talk about your favorite games from not-so-successful video game systems. Lists, reminiscing, conversation and debate are all welcome. Just stay mindful of other people's feelings when responding.

Personally, for me, despite a very small library of games (very few of which were any good), I'm a big fan of the 32X add-on for the SEGA Genesis. Sure, it was that poorly-handled, oddly-designed, awkward stop-gap area between the Genesis and the Saturn, but it had some serious potential. The 32X's two separate 32-bit processors could improve the color spectrum and graphical fidelity of the Genesis, and the video chip could implement some impressive scaling effects not unlike the SNES's Mode 7. And the extra sound processors could handle some pretty impressive sound; not CD quality, mind you, but it was pretty impressive for its time. And with all of that potential, the system had a few games that either showed of the power of the system or were just fun releases in their own right. Here are a few of my personal favorites from the 32X.

Virtua Fighter 32X - Many of the developers for other 32X games like Cosmic Carnage said that the 32X wasn't capable of proper 3D modeling. They said that the barely-better-than-Genesis-looking games with minor sound improvements were the best the mushroom-shaped attachment could muster. And then Virtua Fighter came along. Riding off of the poorly-handled Sega Saturn port and its subsequent "enhanced re-release", Virtua Fighter Remix, the 32X edition of SEGA's revolutionary 3D arcade fighter managed to outstrip even the Remix re-release on the much-more-powerful Saturn. Despite some slightly streamlined animations and heavily-downgraded visuals (I think somewhere along the lines of around 3/5 of the polygons were removed from each character), this version of the game had the best presentation out of them all. Controls were smooth and responsive, with arcade-perfect gameplay flawlessly translated over onto the Genesis control pad. The game had every single feature of the arcade original, and more; controllable difficulty levels, camera control options, arena size changer, match-point selection, an excellent Tournament Mode and more made it into this excellent release. And every single character from the original was present. What more could you ask for? I still play it at least once a day.

Mortal Kombat II - While it is true this is one of those barely-better-than-Genesis releases, it doesn't mean it's a bad port. In fact, this is one of the best versions of Mortal Kombat II out there, up in the top three with the PlayStation and Super Nintendo editions. It plays exactly like you remember it to, if you have a six-button Genesis controller, that is. If you have a standard three-button pad, don't bother. While it doesn't push the limits of the 32X like the aforementioned Virtua Fighter, it's still one of the best games for the add-on.

Space Harrier - This was the first arcade-perfect port of the original Space Harrier to be released on home consoles, and it plays great. The graphics show off the abilities of the 32X's scaling capabilities very well, and it uses the Genesis's graphics processor to simulate an excellent sense of speed.

Metal Head - Another game for the 32X that showed off its capabilities. This is a 3D shooter game where you take control of a mecha and shoot things. And it works. While the slow-moving tank controls haven't aged the best, this can still be enjoyed in small bursts, or in a long marathon run with heavy-metal music blasting through the speakers of your CD player on full volume and a few packages of Samuel Adams by your side. Either way, it's a fun giant-robot shooting-gallery game.

Shadow Squadron - Another 3D game, this one is a space shooter. You can either pilot your ship manually or play on-rails, having the game itself guide you to your next target. It's a pretty fun and enjoyable game, and it has a sweet Star Wars vibe to it.

Virtua Racing Deluxe - A racing game, and another 3D game with boundary-pushing graphics. It's a pretty simple, arcade-style go-around some race tracks in some nicely-modeled vehicles. It ain't no Gran Turismo, but it's worth getting for the fun factor alone. This "Deluxe" release refers to the original Genesis release of Virtua Racing, which would run you about $100 at launch due to its built-in "Virtua Processor", as it was called. This "Deluxe" release contains upgraded graphics, crisper sound, smoother controls, more cars to drive in and extra gameplay modes, making it a much better purchase, as well as justifying its title of being "Deluxe".

EDIT: ADDING MORE GAMES

Darxide - A SEGA 32X exclusive. One of the very few that the system ever had, and also one of the last games released for the doomed add-on, not to mention that it was only released in Europe. It's another of the graphics-pushing games for the system, and another top favorite of mine. It's a space-shooter a lot like Shadow Squadron, but this one is a more difficult game. You have a limited amount of time to complete these missions (destroy asteroids/enemies and related objectives), and you have full maneuverability of your ship. This is one of the few games on the system with texture-mapped graphics, alongside Metal Head.

Star Wars: Arcade - Yet another space shooter. The 32X seems to have a lot of these. This is a game that was originally released in arcades in 1993, and was ported to the 32X a year later as a launch game. Refer to Shadow Squadron for gameplay description.

[Droote]

I like Alex the Kidd for the Sega Master System

[Shiraishi-kun]

Added 2 more 32X games to the above list.

I swear, the SEGA 32X had almost as many space shooters as Action 52. The only difference is that the 32X games are actually GOOD!!

And now for the other ill-fated SEGA Genesis add-on, the SEGA CD.

Sonic the Hedgehog CD - The greatest Sonic game ever, no contest. The levels are enormous and ridiculously creative in design. The time-traveling aspects inspire multiple playthroughs. Both the US and PAL versions of the game feature their own unique, excellent soundtracks. The platforming is perfect. There is no better Sonic game out there.

Earthworm Jim: Special Edition - An updated version of the SEGA Genesis/SNES Earthworm Jim game. Levels are expanded, new levels are added, and this even has a fucking AWESOME soundtrack (New Junk City has never sounded funkier).

Mighty Morphin Power Rangers - One of those FMV-based games that was popular in the 80s and 90s. While it's not particularly creative or difficult, props go out to the developers for condensing the story for the first season into a single game and still making it coherent. The video looks and plays great considering the SEGA CD's issues on the subject.

Time Gal - While not the most difficult of FMV-based games out there, this is one of the more creative. The animation is good, but I gotta admit that the developers could have done a better job with the data compression, because the videos just plain don't look good. Regardless, it's very playable, and it is also very humorous, as the death sequences are always done in a very exaggerated and cartoony style.

Ninja Hayate - Known as Revenge of the Ninja in the US and Europe. A lot like Time Gal, but much more difficult.

[kirant]

PC games deserve a mention. God forbid people learn that most PC games aren't free, which is probably why their quality and quantity are going downhill fast...to call them a fortunate system since 2000 or so would be a lie (and what happens if there is innovation? Even more pirating! Case and point: Spore...but this is falling off topic real fast):
- Master of Orion II: Battle of Antares
- Panzer General II

[Konata Suzumiya]

PC games deserve a mention. God forbid people learn that most PC games aren't free, which is probably why their quality and quantity are going downhill fast...to call them a fortunate system since 2000 or so would be a lie


Oh god you're right PC gaming is dying!
Oh wait... no it's not.

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/topic/27558178
Current number of people on Steam right now: 3,571,822
Multi-plat games that look and play better on the PC: All of them

PC also continues to be the platform that supports up and coming indie devs more than any other.


Sonic CD

[kirant]

To start: Mario's Tennis always was sorta fun (Visual Boy)

Oh god you're right PC gaming is dying!
Oh wait... no it's not.
Let me rephrase that: Big ticket games are dying. Between draconian measures against piracy and a seeming refusal to pay for games (I can't remember the last time anybody I know in person paid for a game on a PC...), PC games seem to quickly be running themselves into the ground.

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/topic/27558178
Current number of people on Steam right now: 3,571,822
I'm part of that 3 million and I don't support any industry game. Haven't paid to own one for one in several years (except Starcraft II...but I gave that one away real quick)

Multi-plat games that look and play better on the PC: All of them
NHL 09 PC vs 360. Game, set, match. Any argument against that will be countered with unending laughter and commenting of "Didn't do the research". Unless you're saying the number of Steam multi-platform games...in which case, you're growing suspiciously narrow in your focus.

Also, I'd alter your post to have some semblance of the topic, which is games from what you perceive to be unfortunate systems, instead of an "I take offence to that comment" and nothing else. It legitimately hits off-topic as nothing there pertains to the topic at hand.

[Konata Suzumiya]

Let me rephrase that: Big ticket games are dying. Between draconian measures against piracy and a seeming refusal to pay for games (I can't remember the last time anybody I know in person paid for a game on a PC), PC games seem to quickly be running themselves into the ground.

The Witcher 2, Diablo 3, Starcraft 2, Red Orchestra 2, Dawn of War franchise, MMOs of all types...
The list goes on.


I'm part of that 3 million and I don't support any industry game. Haven't paid for one in several years (except Starcraft II...but I gave that one away real quick)

And? Many of those people online right now do support the industry.


NHL 09 PC vs 360. Game, set, match. Any argument against that will be countered with unending laughter and commenting of "Didn't do the research". Unless you're saying the number of Steam multi-platform games...in which case, you're growing suspiciously narrow in your focus.

Sorry let me rephrase that. Any multiplat that didn't go through terrible half-assed porting.


Star wars arcade

[kirant]

I don't know the name, but the arcade game where you role played a dinosaur. That was awesome...never saw more than twice though...

The Witcher 2, Diablo 3, Starcraft 2, Red Orchestra 2, Dawn of War franchise, MMOs of all types...
Dunno where the hell you're getting your numbers from, but none of those I haven't heard concerns on...SCII is okay, but legacy o the original and very cut throat mechanisms hurt a lot of the support I've seen for it (in specific, the log in to play). Diablo 3 is questioned on being too much of an old game with new game elements at the moment (See: Duke Nukem Forever), Red Orchestra 2...never heard of the game before now...and same for Witcher (actually, that'd be a lie. I've heard of it, but only with some guy asking for it on the 360).

And? Many of those people online right now do support the industry.
And my point is that from the reference point I have, I do not have any evidence of the contrary occuring. Aside from Free to Play League of Legends, I haven't heard a major

Sorry let me rephrase that. Any multiplat that didn't go through terrible half-assed porting.
Bethesda games seem to be rated better on the 360. Pretty simple example there.

[Konata Suzumiya]

Dunno where the hell you're getting your numbers from, but none of those I haven't heard concerns on...SCII is okay, but legacy o the original and very cut throat mechanisms hurt a lot of the support I've seen for it (in specific, the log in to play). Diablo 3 is questioned on being too much of an old game with new game elements at the moment (See: Duke Nukem Forever), Red Orchestra 2...never heard of the game before now...and same for Witcher (actually, that'd be a lie. I've heard of it, but only with some guy asking for it on the 360).

So if you haven't heard of the title it doesn't exist?
Also, everyone will have problems with some games. Duke Nukem Forever for one could never be called in old game, because it abandons everything about the age it was from.


And my point is that from the reference point I have, I do not have any evidence of the contrary occuring. Aside from Free to Play League of Legends, I haven't heard a major

Valve seems to be doing well enough with Steam.
Hell Crysis had a reported 2-3 million sales (not pirates), and that's only used as a benchmarker.


Bethesda games seem to be rated better on the 360. Pretty simple example there.

Rated = quality?
The PC versions get patched before the 360 and PS3 versions (because Steam is much quicker and doesn't have designated patch days), and the PC version allows modding.

One could also argue the PC version is put on higher standards.


Virtual Fighter 32X

[Niko Jims]

@kirant
Do you know how many console owners rent SP games instead of buying them? What about the fact that some mod their consoles (Homebrew for the Wii and PS3, JTAG for the Xbox 360) so they can play any game they want for free and even play games early (this includes DLC and arcade games)? And if you can't do that, you can simply flash your console to do the same exact thing that you can on a PC. Do you know that you could do a license transfer on xbox so two people get the same items? Isn't that also pirating?

No one will stop pirating, so saying that the PC is going down the tubes because of pirating is a joke. Every system has pirates. They will NEVER go away.

Also, Valve would like to have a word with you about quality PC games.

Anyways, to stay on topic, GTA Vice City for the PS2. Hated the system but loved that game.

[Shiraishi-kun]

Virtua Fighter 32X

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VoW9czgQBqE

[kirant]

To start - I really miss the Classic games that you could plug into your TV...the ones with a single joystick, two buttons, and would let you play games like Pacman or Asteroids.


So if you haven't heard of the title it doesn't exist?
Let's see...where did I say that? That's an incorrect inference and one that it seems you decided to run with as a primary argument. The correct one would be that I can't speak for any concerns that exist with the game.

Duke Nukem Forever for one could never be called in old game, because it abandons everything about the age it was from.
Platforming. You really have to stop using absolutes. It makes all too easy to counter.

Valve seems to be doing well enough with Steam.
Steam isn't a singular game either. It's a transport medium and one that basically reads as a relatively decent percentage of PC games these days. They better be doing damn well or the entire industry is in deader than disco and Chuck Norris jokes.

Hell Crysis had a reported 2-3 million sales (not pirates), and that's only used as a benchmarker.
That's nothing. For scale, Spore was pirated 1.7 million copies in 3 months. Crysis 2 sold 3 million copies in all platforms in 3 months. Even it we assume half the copies are sold on PC (twice sales on PC than on other available systems, for scale), something is seriously fata'd up with the system if more people pirated it.

Rated = quality?
The PC versions get patched before the 360 and PS3 versions (because Steam is much quicker and doesn't have designated patch days), and the PC version allows modding.
And when did modding become quality? By the same extension, we could still argue GBA is better than the DS because the touch screen rarely added much and GBA games are still the ideal modding platform for handhelds. The best standard we have is rating. It's bias towards games that are more polished on launch, yes, but we don't have the perfect rating system that we can empirically measure quality from and the rating scale, flawed as it is, is the best.

One could also argue the PC version is put on higher standards.
One could also argue they are held to a lower standard. It's an impasse of arguments as we have no scientific proof of either, so it can't stand as a platform of an argument and one neither of us can gain an advantage from.

Do you know how many console owners rent SP games instead of buying them?
You'll need to define SP. Else, I can't answer that question. Rental can't be too high though, as any rental store I know in Canada is gone or vanishing. It is a practice that needs to reverse itself though, as in the more general case of video game fans, the entitlement issues is a major problem for gamers.

What about the fact that some mod their consoles (Homebrew for the Wii and PS3, JTAG for the Xbox 360) so they can play any game they want for free and even play games early (this includes DLC and arcade games)? And if you can't do that, you can simply flash your console to do the same exact thing that you can on a PC. Do you know that you could do a license transfer on xbox so two people get the same items? Isn't that also pirating?
When did I say it wasn't? Your inference is incorrect and I don't believe I made an implication of the opposite.

No one will stop pirating, so saying that the PC is going down the tubes because of pirating is a joke. Every system has pirates. They will NEVER go away.
I never said it would go away, nor did I imply it. What is a joke, however, is that PC fans appear under the delusion that they do it less or that other systems are worse. There are damn good reasons why when I (or anyone I've talked to about this) go into a game store, the PC section has gotten smaller and smaller for years and years (even the employees notice this)...and we all come to the same conclusion: PC is becoming less profitable for the storefront, even if the game isn't available for purchase online. Did I say piracy was a one system issue? Did I ever say that the Wii, 360, PS3, 3DS were free of it? Did I say it would ever go away?

My statement is pretty plain and pretty simple: It is a much bigger problem on the PC than anything else. By comparison, Halo 3 or Halo Reach didn't set comparable %s in piracy.

[Konata Suzumiya]

Platforming. You really have to stop using absolutes. It makes all too easy to counter.

It was bad platforming, good platforming can be seen in games such as half-life. Other than that one thing, Duke Nukem Forever had nothing to do with the old style fps games.


Steam isn't a singular game either. It's a transport medium and one that basically reads as a relatively decent percentage of PC games these days. They better be doing damn well or the entire industry is in deader than disco and Chuck Norris jokes.

The majority of Sales these days come from digital mediums, most of which do not disclose sales. The fact that Crysis sold so many copies, despite being mostly just a benchmark, proves that PC gaming is not in a slump at all.


That's nothing. For scale, Spore was pirated 1.7 million copies in 3 months. Crysis 2 sold 3 million copies in all platforms in 3 months. Even it we assume half the copies are sold on PC (twice sales on PC than on other available systems, for scale), something is seriously fata'd up with the system if more people pirated it.

Crysis 2 sold only a few hundred thousand copies (total) on the PC. Not because the platform is dying, but because PC gamers felt abandoned completely by Crytek.

Edit: and to add to this, the main reason people pirated Spore so much was because of Securom. It's a terrible piece of software that can be worked around by pirating, but plagues the consumer.


And when did modding become quality? By the same extension, we could still argue GBA is better than the DS because the touch screen rarely added much and GBA games are still the ideal modding platform for handhelds. The best standard we have is rating. It's bias towards games that are more polished on launch, yes, but we don't have the perfect rating system that we can empirically measure quality from and the rating scale, flawed as it is, is the best.

Modding brings a whole other level of potential for games. By including a basic SDK and having a fairly simple to navigate engine, mods can extend the lifetime of a game by ten fold. No, mods should not be a reason why the vanilla version is better, but they should be a reason why the game is better played on the PC.


One could also argue they are held to a lower standard. It's an impasse of arguments as we have no scientific proof of either, so it can't stand as a platform of an argument and one neither of us can gain an advantage from.

PC games hold a higher standard because they have much more potential. The GPU in the modern PC is much more powerful than the console counterpart. PCs are also not limited by disc size.


You'll need to define SP. Else, I can't answer that question. Rental can't be too high though, as any rental store I know in Canada is gone or vanishing. It is a practice that needs to reverse itself though, as in the more general case of video game fans, the entitlement issues is a major problem for gamers.

Rental stores are disappearing because Red Box and Gamefly are making a monopoly off of it. Why pay $10 for a game you can beat in a day? Why not pay $15 for unlimited rentals a month?
Renting hasn't disappeared, it's bigger than ever before.



I never said it would go away, nor did I imply it. What is a joke, however, is that PC fans appear under the delusion that they do it less or that other systems are worse.
No one is under such a delusion, but PC gamers can recognize that the estimated effects of piracy are grossly exaggerated.


There are damn good reasons why when I (or anyone I've talked to about this) go into a game store, the PC section has gotten smaller and smaller for years and years (even the employees notice this)...and we all come to the same conclusion: PC is becoming less profitable for the storefront, even if the game isn't available for purchase online. Did I say piracy was a one system issue? Did I ever say that the Wii, 360, PS3, 3DS were free of it? Did I say it would ever go away?

Because the majority of PC gaming has transitioned to an online medium. There is no modern PC game only available physically.


The original Prince of Persia

[kirant]

Because we're debating the subject still - Panzer General II and World at War

It was bad platforming, good platforming can be seen in games such as half-life. Other than that one thing, Duke Nukem Forever had nothing to do with the old style fps games.
Mhmm.
Fair enough. It's a shooter from the 90's trying to shoehorn in some 2000's ideas.
Yup.

The best description I've seen is that it takes all the bad ideas of 90s shooters and combines them with all the bad ideas of today's shooters.
So...which one is it? Nothing related to old FPS? Or taking the bad ideas from the old ones and mixing them with the new ones?

The majority of Sales these days come from digital mediums, most of which do not disclose sales. The fact that Crysis sold so many copies, despite being mostly just a benchmark, proves that PC gaming is not in a slump at all.
Crysis actually has only sold 3 million since its original sale date. If we use the same scale, that's STILL over 1/3 pirated, and insane margin by any standard and even more crazy when you realize that doing poor extrapolation of the 1 million in 2 months sale rate it had (as the majority of sales occur in 2-3 weeks), Crysis sold less than half the games played with the change being pirated.

Modding brings a whole other level of potential for games. By including a basic SDK and having a fairly simple to navigate engine, mods can extend the lifetime of a game by ten fold. No, mods should not be a reason why the vanilla version is better, but they should be a reason why the game is better played on the PC.
You should stop with the whole "Potential vs Reality" argument while you're ahead. I'm an individual who revels in using development, potential, and fulfillment as key words in arguments and actively researches them in all mediums (a key part of me being an armchair GM is developing young talent and knowing when to fold when potential isn't going to be fulfilled). If you wish to get into a philosophical debate about potential, realizing it, cultivating it, and how much it should impact decision making and how much potential holds as a quality, sure, bring it up. Just as a fair warning though, that IS a major pass time of mine. I'll flatly say this about potential (As this was 4 paragraphs before I decided to go laconic): It's only good if it's realized. Having all the potential in the world means nothing if it isn't taken advantage of. Because something with the quality of a real 6 can be modded to become the quality of an 8 doesn't strictly mean it's better than a game with a real 7.

That being said though, your argument states that reviews may hold PC games to a higher standard because they can be modded. It make little sense as most reviews are done early into the release, before real good modding can impact the score.

PC games hold a higher standard because they have much more potential. The GPU in the modern PC is much more powerful than the console counterpart. PCs are also not limited by disc size.
See above. Potential is not a quality of its own and reviews are done early.

Rental stores are disappearing because Red Box and Gamefly are making a monopoly off of it. Why pay $10 for a game you can beat in a day? Why not pay $15 for unlimited rentals a month?
Not an argument against a monopoly, but I'd point out in your hypothetical case that if you can beat the game in a day (and rent it for 10 bucks for presumably in a week), why bother paying the extra 5 bucks for 3 weeks you'll never use. It's like asking for a large soda when you throw out the delta between a large and a medium.

I don't really consider it a rental. It's more of a middleman retail.

No one is under such a delusion, but PC gamers can recognize that the estimated effects of piracy are grossly exaggerated.
Yeah, because no numerical extrapolation has led you to believe the opposite. I find it concerning if people can't read that having piracy that even the top sellers like Starcraft II struggle to compete against (Reading the numbers point out that it's easily between 40-50% of the copies are pirated).

[Konata Suzumiya]

So...which one is it? Nothing related to old FPS? Or taking the bad ideas from the old ones and mixing them with the new ones?

I was still under the impression there was anything about old fps in the game. After further review of the game, I saw that there was little to none.



Crysis actually has only sold 3 million since its original sale date. If we use the same scale, that's STILL over 1/3 pirated, and insane margin by any standard and even more crazy when you realize that doing poor extrapolation of the 1 million in 2 months sale rate it had (as the majority of sales occur in 2-3 weeks), Crysis sold less than half the games played with the change being pirated.

How do you know all of the people who pirated copies could have run Crysis in the first place? How can we assume those who pirated would have purchased it?



That being said though, your argument states that reviews may hold PC games to a higher standard because they can be modded. It make little sense as most reviews are done early into the release, before real good modding can impact the score.

You argument was initially that the console versions of a game were not outdone by the PC versions. Your support was the comparison of the 360 and PC scores of Fallout 3.
Reviews should not be a good basis as to the better version, as they do not compare themselves to the other versions, nor do they take into account mods / modding tools.

Anyone could tell you that the PC version has better graphics than the console version, but that will never be reflected in either review.


Not an argument against a monopoly, but I'd point out in your hypothetical case that if you can beat the game in a day (and rent it for 10 bucks for presumably in a week), why bother paying the extra 5 bucks for 3 weeks you'll never use. It's like asking for a large soda when you throw out the delta between a large and a medium.

Because the monthly subscription to gamefly allows you to send back the game and get a new one in the same month.
It's the same concept as Netflix.


Yeah, because no numerical extrapolation has led you to believe the opposite. I find it concerning if people can't read that having piracy that even the top sellers like Starcraft II struggle to compete against (Reading the numbers point out that it's easily between 40-50% of the copies are pirated).

http://kotaku.com/5020530/cryteks-ceo-piracy-threatens-pc-exclusivity
You're right, 45 million people would have bought Crysis if not for piracy.

I never said piracy wasn't as issue; I said it was exaggerated.


Also, let me bring this up again since I added it while you were responding.
Edit: and to add to this, the main reason people pirated Spore so much was because of Securom. It's a terrible piece of software that can be worked around by pirating, but plagues the consumer.


Panic! was a weird but fun game.

[kirant]

Galaxy Angel, PC

I was still under the impression there was anything about old fps in the game. After further review of the game, I saw that there was little to none.
Sure. It's a moot point though as the argument isn't whether or not the old systems implimented well or not, but whether or not old functions can be a concern for a new game and aggregate statements are that it is. Using a single game as an example doesn't change the fact that it can be (For examples, I think It's the Same, So It Sucks on TVtropes might have some).

How do you know all of the people who pirated copies could have run Crysis in the first place? How can we assume those who pirated would have purchased it?
How do we know anything? We can't say anything about the reverses, where those who bought the game could run it or, without piracy, wouldn't have bought it. We have faceless numbers and we can make theoretical reasons as to how important they are for all time unless we get ground work mind controlling gamers and asking them...or blackmailing them.

You argument was initially that the console versions of a game were not outdone by the PC versions. Your support was the comparison of the 360 and PC scores of Fallout 3.
My argument is that games without your proclaimed half-ass porting can be better on non-PC systems. You're the one with the absolutes here.

Reviews should not be a good basis as to the better version, as they do not compare themselves to the other versions, nor do they take into account mods / modding tools.
And my argument is purely because they exist doesn't make them a better game. Potential and realized results are two entirely different beasts.

Anyone could tell you that the PC version has better graphics than the console version, but that will never be reflected in either review.
Anybody could tell you the PC COULD have better graphics. Again, potential and results. Because it can doesn't mean it is. Distinguishing the two is a major hurdle and one many defenders of dead end research, horrible sports prospects and some game systems stumble on quite frequently.

Because the monthly subscription to gamefly allows you to send back the game and get a new one in the same month.
It's the same concept as Netflix.
I haven't seen this site, but I suspect it's very similar to Netflix in terms of its depth of movies making it a good value, yet unreliable, source.

http://kotaku.com/5020530/cryteks-ceo-piracy-threatens-pc-exclusivity
You're right, 45 million people would have bought Crysis if not for piracy.
Because he makes up a number doesn't make it true. Appeal to Authority is a strong logical fallacy my friend.

I never said piracy wasn't as issue; I said it was exaggerated.
My point is you can't exactly exaggerate past numbers of upwards between 30-50% of games played being pirated. Actually, it's a little higher than I was expecting before research.

Edit: and to add to this, the main reason people pirated Spore so much was because of Securom. It's a terrible piece of software that can be worked around by pirating, but plagues the consumer.
It's very draconian, I admit, but pirating numbers are rare to come by. You have to make do with what you're handed and the magnitudes of Spore and other games are good enough. If you have proven, accurate numbers on piracy and other underground activities from a decent source, give them to me.

I also don't buy the "main reason" bit. Give me solid proof of it.

[Konata Suzumiya]

http://www.upcomingtechnology.org/2011/07/pc-gaming-not-dying-justification/
http://pc.ign.com/articles/111/1112513p1.html
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-03-01-pc-gaming-is-growing-everywhere
http://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-pc-console-sales-battlefield-3-bf3-pc-gaming,13499.html
http://www.ripten.com/2011/09/21/research-shows-that-pc-game-sales-will-eclipse-console-game-sales-by-2014/


Read these, I wanted to link my number 1 source but I can't seem to find it. They sum up most of the points I would have brought to the table anyway. PC gaming is not dying, it's growing.
There are also the reports that hardware sales have been higher than ever since E3 (battlefield 3).

Shadow squadron for the 32x

[kirant]

Romance of the Three Kingdoms XI

http://www.upcomingtechnology.org/2011/07/pc-gaming-not-dying-justification/
If we use numbers such as SCII's piracy rate as a comparison, there is still little proof of PC being better. There isn't really supportive or dismissive of the idea.

http://pc.ign.com/articles/111/1112513p1.html
Has zero numbers. It's purely one guy blabbing his mouth off. It'd be the same as if Steve Jobs claimed Macs sales will be getting better.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2011-03-01-pc-gaming-is-growing-everywhere
A place that gives zero backing to their numbers is highly suspect. The fact that it's supported by the companies gives them incentives to ensure it looks good and sneak facts in. A Social 20 project of mine shows how easy it is manipulate facts.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/nvidia-pc-console-sales-battlefield-3-bf3-pc-gaming,13499.html
http://www.ripten.com/2011/09/21/research-shows-that-pc-game-sales-will-eclipse-console-game-sales-by-2014/
It's extremely obvious that their projections stat up at the time used a grand total of 3 data points. THREE. If you look how nicely the console one is smoothed, it's also obvious they assumed sinusoidal predictions. These both point out that the data is bias, and not exactly hiding it. If this is the closest thing to concrete evidence, then little research has really been done.

[Shiraishi-kun]

Shadow squadron for the 32x

I see you like the SEGA 32X as much as I do.

[Konata Suzumiya]

It's extremely obvious that their projections stat up at the time used a grand total of 3 data points. THREE. If you look how nicely the console one is smoothed, it's also obvious they assumed sinusoidal predictions.

But it does point out that PC game software has only continued to rise in sales, not fall as many have claimed.
A dying platform would need to have a decline.

Knuckles' Chaotix

I see you like the SEGA 32X as much as I do.

Yea it's unfortunate that a lot of the games never got ported.
Good thing for emulation.

[kirant]

A dying platform would need to have a decline.
Who ever said that? If sales increases, but costs increase more, it's still a decline. A loss in profit is a slow down or decline, not a loss in total sales. If they lost sales, but lost even more costs, it'd not be dying.

Economics 101.

STHS simulator.

[Konata Suzumiya]

Who ever said that? If sales increases, but costs increase more, it's still a decline. A loss in profit is a slow down or decline, not a loss in total sales. If they lost sales, but lost even more costs, it'd not be dying.


But the cost has been stable at $50 (new) for years now.

T-mek

[kirant]

But the costs have been stable at $50 (new) for years now.

Production costs, sir.

...Does Matlab count as a game if it's just THAT fun?

[Konata Suzumiya]

Production costs, sir.


Production hasn't raised by much considering most games use an older, slightly modified engine, and don't have development times even close to what they used to.

Spiderman Web of Fire

[kirant]

Production hasn't raised by much considering most games use an older, slightly modified engine, and don't have development times even close to what they used to.
But also use way more employees. And we're not sure what their salaries are and how they act in relative to the GDP (commonly called Real GDP).

Not to mention that, unless you work there or have detailed datasheets, we can't say if it's true that it actually causes production cost decreases.

Audiosurf.

[Shiraishi-kun]

Yea it's unfortunate that a lot of the games never got ported.
Good thing for emulation.

Heh, agreed. I honestly think the 32X was a good idea in concept: an add-on for the Genesis that would allow the system to play more complex, even 3D games with better graphics and sound capabilities than the Genesis alone could muster. It's just that SEGA fumbled with the hardware and, worst of all, the handling of the system, and the entire thing turned into a massive failure. But for what it was, the 32X was a great little add-on with some excellent games for it... if one bothers to look for them, of course. I have a folder on my PC filled with eleven different ROMs for the system. I especially love to play Virtua Fighter, Shadow Squadron, Star Wars Arcade, DarXide and Virtua Racing Deluxe.

EDIT: Another issue with the 32X was that developers didn't like it just because it was, in essence, the Genesis with some extra shimmer. As such, most developers either didn't bother with the system or they put on these barely-better-than-Genesis games with only minor alterations to sound and color, saying that "this is really pushing the limits of the 32X". Really? I think Virtua Fighter, Metal Head, DarXide and Shadow Squadron would like a word with you on that subject. They had fully-functional 3D graphics, and Virtua Fighter even had (for the time) complex animations, physics and interface to back it up. The developers didn't even try.

[Konata Suzumiya]

But also use way more employees. And we're not sure what their salaries are and how they act in relative to the GDP (commonly called Real GDP).

Not to mention that, unless you work there or have detailed datasheets, we can't say if it's true that it actually causes production cost decreases.


Well if we want to go this far, why are we arguing?
Unless we get all the facts, we don't know anything except that the sales for PC games are increasing and becoming more digitally based (and thus, because Steam rarely releases sale information, much harder to get accurate numbers)

After Burner

[kirant]

Well if we want to go this far, why are we arguing?
Unless we get all the facts, we don't know anything except that the sales for PC games are increasing and becoming more digitally based (and thus, because Steam rarely releases sale information, much harder to get accurate numbers)
I'd argue that the small # of data points don't give enough of a story to make any argument out of. Extrapolation of 2 or 3 points is really stupid and any argument made about the situation really fragile at best. If you must draw a conclusion, I'd say that 2010 has an anomaly in sales totals compared to 2008 and 2009, which are effectively the same sale total. Whether or not it's a true value or just a change because of certain games being sold is questionable. But again, I'd read nothing into 3 numbers.

Sim Theme Park.

[Konata Suzumiya]

I'd argue that the small # of data points don't give enough of a story to make any argument out of. Extrapolation of 2 or 3 points is really stupid and any argument made about the situation really fragile at best. If you must draw a conclusion, I'd say that 2010 has an anomaly in sales totals compared to 2008 and 2009, which are effectively the same sale total. Whether or not it's a true value or just a change because of certain games being sold is questionable. But again, I'd read nothing into 3 numbers.


I'd argue that if there is a decline, it's far too small to be one that would worry anyone. 3 million sales of a game is more than enough to pay for its production several times over.
When we have reports from Gabe Newell, John Carmack, and EA (less respectable, but one who would hold far less bias in the realm of PC gaming) that all say that PC gaming is only growing, and the first two say that pirates aren't much of a problem, I'd say that PC gaming is not even close to being dead.


Sim Theme Park.

I have the feeling you're just trying to get on my nerves at this point.


Corpse Killer

[Droote]

Audiosurf.

I wouldn't say that the PC is a "not-so-fortunate system", but Audiosurf is an incredibly addictive and fun game, spite the simplicity of it.

[kirant]

Plants Vs Zombies...it plays so much better with a mouse.

I'd argue that if there is a decline, it's far too small to be one that would worry anyone. 3 million sales of a game is more than enough to pay for its production several times over.
3 million only occurs with star games though. With a decent % of each game becoming pirated, financial losses for many games in the "bubble region" of profitability will be recorded as losses, easily sinking quite a few future ventures.

When we have reports from Gabe Newell, John Carmack, and EA (less respectable, but one who would hold far less bias in the realm of PC gaming) that all say that PC gaming is only growing, and the first two say that pirates aren't much of a problem, I'd say that PC gaming is not even close to being dead.[/qyite]
After reading this, I decided to do a little of my own research. The following sites were used:
http://www.wikinvest.com/concept/Game_Consoles_Wars:_Xbox_360_vs._PS3_vs._Wii - States that a 1/3 to 1/4 of Console market value is in the console sales. This gives me a rough rule of thumb to convert sales numbers into Market size.
http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/Video_game_industry - States size of total market
http://inflationdata.com/inflation/consumer_price_index/historicalcpi.aspx - States CPI, so we can adjust our values to a consistent year and remove inflation as a variable
http://www.gamerprint.co.uk/products/lon-lon-milk - States console sales values

I estimated the cost of each console by the trends of sales each year.

With that, I created a few charts. We're all visual people, so I think it's easier to understand them by looking over me writing blocks of text. Linear values were added for fun, as we're a little outside the range of finding reasonable patterns. As well, I'd love to add more years, but values become sketchy past this point (as it they weren't already!)
http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd5/icebornwarrior/CPIMarketSize.png
Market size (in 1983 $) vs Year. If we took this as gospel, we can see that without inflation, consoles seem to be the primary moving force of the market size because of a near perfect relationship.

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd5/icebornwarrior/CPIPercentgrowth.png
% growth of the industry as a function sans inflation against year. PC's is there because...I dunno why. No discernible trends emerge this.

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd5/icebornwarrior/CPIPercentofIndustry.png
% of the total video game market as a function of the year. Less than a helpful value because of the lack of years, but if you want to extrapolate, there is a minor trend upwards for consoles and a fairly flat line for PCs.

What these seem to state from the first one is that consoles are the primary part of the industry and are driving it forward. From the last one, we seem to see that, despite a major increase in sales in 2010, PC are primarily a minor part of the market. The idea that they'll overwhelm consoles anytime soon is pretty out in left field. It being growing, isn't real as they are growing by inflation, not by real growth.

[QUOTE=Konata Suzumiya;152649]I have the feeling you're just trying to get on my nerves at this point.
I've been listing PC games and other things that entertain me on a PC for a while. Is this a delayed reaction or is this legitimately the first one you recognized?

[Konata Suzumiya]

Yes, because I care so very much that every kid on the block is buying an xbawks to play cawwa dooty. Why don't we factor in the people that play farmville while we're at it?

I seriously doubt that you of all people actually believe that the PC is on its last ropes. With Steam, D2D, GMG, and now Origin as much as I despise it (along with several other digital distributors) the PC is looking to be better than ever in the realm of gaming. You can throw physical sales at me all you want, but the majority of sales are digital, and those sales figures are rarely released to the public.

So congratulations, you managed to troll me.


I've been listing PC games and other things that entertain me on a PC for a while. Is this a delayed reaction or is this legitimately the first one you recognized?

I ignored the first few because I thought they were just jokes, then you just kept putting them up.

Halo 3 because in 2-4 years the 360 will be dead like every other console before it.

[kirant]

Anybody ever play "I have no mouth and I must scream" based off the book of the same name? That was fun.

Yes, because I care so very much that every kid on the block is buying an xbawks to play cawwa dooty. Why don't we factor in the people that play farmville while we're at it?

I seriously doubt that you of all people actually believe that the PC is on its last ropes. With Steam, D2D, GMG, and now Origin as much as I despise it (along with several other digital distributors) the PC is looking to be better than ever in the realm of gaming. You can throw physical sales at me all you want, but the majority of sales are digital, and those sales figures are rarely released to the public.
I disagree. I am including all of those as we're working with market size, not sales figures. While I needed a course estimation of sales figures to translate into market size, these numbers are not about how many over the counter sales we get. I used YOUR numbers, and compared them to numbers calculated for the rest of the industry, accounted for inflation. So, really, they should be including everything such as Farmville if your links are accurate. From the numbers there, it is shown that switching to PC gaming has not occured over the argued years. If you want me to explicitely link this back to the statements, then this counters the idea that PC gaming is the future and leaves no supported backing to the argument that non-casual PC gaming is surging. At best, it's treading water compared to the industry, maybe even regressing as a whole if we consider how more and more of PC gaming IS Farmville and the like.

So congratulations, you managed to troll me.
I'd be more tempted to say you trolled me in your last post. Your comments are no longer objective and more just a sputtering mess with little direction and don't logically cohere to what you actually want to say.

Halo 3 because in 2-4 years the 360 will be dead like every other console before it.
Oh yeah, because my last graph correcting for inflation didn't just disprove that. Disagree with me all you want, you can't argue with hard numbers.

[Konata Suzumiya]

Fine; I'll give you $10,000 if Steam and Origin (and any counterparts) no longer exist in the year 2015. Because if PC gaming is really dying, they shouldn't.

Oh yeah, because my last graph correcting for inflation didn't just disprove that. Disagree with me all you want, you can't argue with hard numbers.

And yet, it will be replaced by a newer generation, and that generation will be replaced and so on. The PC has outlasted every other console, and it will continue to in the future. You can remain on your soapbox spouting about how "the end is nigh", or you can deal with it.

I enjoyed Halo Reach

[kirant]

The Sims plays great on a PC.

Fine; I'll give you $10,000 if Steam and Origin (and any counterparts) no longer exist in the year 2015. Because if PC gaming is really dying, they shouldn't.
Who said I said Steam would be the first to go or that the entire industry would vanish? (Actually, I'm never sure I used the term dying). I refer to regression, which doesn't mean something will die fast or completely, but that it's overextended and needs to cut back as an industry. In this case, I believe the non-casual PC games are regressing due to piracy.

Had you the ability to read these statements without obvious foaming at the mouth at the comments, that should be very obvious. Nice attempt at incorrect reductio ad absurdum though. Why not just change it to "2012" instead and make it obvious you're extrapolating my arguments to places it doesn't even attempt to argue?

And yet, it will be replaced by a newer generation, and that generation will be replaced and so on. The PC has outlasted every other console, and it will continue to in the future. You can remain on your soapbox spouting about how "the end is nigh", or you can deal with it.
...Are you kidding? Is this an attempt at humour?

If not, you really make this too easy...and then you're either backing yourself into a corner or really don't understand terminology. Because PCs are constantly transforming, we can't give them a generational definition. That's why we call it PC gaming and aren't streamlined by generations.

Consoles, like any PC, get obsolete. Because consoles are streamlined by approximate years of release, we can give them generational names. By the same idea of generations on PCs, we can say that 2012 PCs are cycling out to replace older model PCs. To say PC gaming is outliving certain generation of consoles is like saying console gaming as a whole outlived the 2000 edition of a PC...in which case we have two correct, but completely absurd to use, statements. Have 360s outlasted some 2005 PCs? I think so...a good number in fact. Especially if you consider many of the over-the-counter models.

A fair comparison between the two would use approximate generations of PCs (say 2005 PC vs 360) or comparison of the gaming industries as a whole (PC gaming vs Console gaming).

[Konata Suzumiya]

Who said I said Steam would be the first to go or that the entire industry would vanish? (Actually, I'm never sure I used the term dying). I refer to regression, which doesn't mean something will die fast or completely, but that it's overextended and needs to cut back as an industry. In this case, I believe the non-casual PC games are regressing due to piracy.

Had you the ability to read these statements without obvious foaming at the mouth at the comments, that should be very obvious. Nice attempt at incorrect reductio ad absurdum though. Why not just change it to "2012" instead and make it obvious you're extrapolating my arguments to places it doesn't even attempt to argue?

(For the following; when I refer to "DRM", I am referring to the more intrusive kind, not stuff like Steamworks)

This entire argument has been you poking at the fact that PC software doesn't have the majority or even strong percentage of the industry that it did before. Every year we get a new PC exclusive RPG or RTS that shakes the foundations of its genre as a whole, but you still feel as if it's on a decline. Piracy reports were grossly exaggerated prior to the intrusive methods of modern DRM, and the modern anti-piracy attempts have only increased the numbers of pirating.
If someone pirated a game before DRM, why would they buy the game and hinder their experience with the DRM, when they could simply pirate the game and avoid the DRM all-together? At the same time, people who would have normally bought a game will pirate games filled with DRM (so that they may avoid it): examples of this can be seen in Spore, and the inevitable Batman Arkham City (which I'm sure will set some records for pirating).

Yet at the same time, you see games selling millions of copies on the PC. Bad Company 2, a game which wasn't even a good "benchmarker" like Crysis, sold a reported whopping 3 million copies on the PC. Millions of games (keys) are sold during the bi-annual Steam Sales. I'd hardly call that a "not-so-fortunate decline" in the system.



...Are you kidding? Is this an attempt at humour?

If not, you really make this too easy...and then you're either backing yourself into a corner or really don't understand terminology. Because PCs are constantly transforming, we can't give them a generational definition. That's why we call it PC gaming and aren't streamlined by generations.

Consoles, like any PC, get obsolete. Because consoles are streamlined by approximate years of release, we can give them generational names. By the same idea of generations on PCs, we can say that 2012 PCs are cycling out to replace older model PCs. To say PC gaming is outliving certain generation of consoles is like saying console gaming as a whole outlived the 2000 edition of a PC...in which case we have two correct, but completely absurd to use, statements. Have 360s outlasted some 2005 PCs? I think so...a good number in fact. Especially if you consider many of the over-the-counter models.

A fair comparison between the two would use approximate generations of PCs (say 2005 PC vs 360) or comparison of the gaming industries as a whole (PC gaming vs Console gaming).

Yes, PCs do become outdated, but not in the same way as consoles. Consoles are a combination of hardware and software, intertwined and impossible to change. So when there is a change in generations (for the same type of console. ex; PS2 ---> PS3 or Gamecube ---> Wii), the console instantly becomes outdated and obsolete. On the other hand, a PC lasts as long as its parts. A 2005 videocard has the potential to play certain games from 2011 (albeit on lower settings). It's impossible to categorize the PC into "generations" unless you define it by the software, but then you're only telling half the story. Yes, at this point XP gaming is obsolete / outdated, but PC gaming as a whole is not (which is what we're talking about)

PC gaming itself will continue to outlast any future generation of consoles. Just as console gaming would outlast any generation of OS gaming, but that's not the subject of the argument.

[kirant]

Starcraft...legend, Korean obsession, addicting...call it what you want.

Every year we get a new PC exclusive RPG or RTS that shakes the foundations of its genre as a whole, but you still feel as if it's on a decline.
There are two entirely different beasts there. One is game quality, one is health of the industry. A dying industry can still release great games. And that's what PC gaming has regressed to: A hits based industry.

Piracy reports were grossly exaggerated prior to the intrusive methods of modern DRM, and the modern anti-piracy attempts have only increased the numbers of pirating.
Proof of either? We can't go off wishy washy statements or else it's an impasse. I've provided course estimates of piracy rates, but all you have answered when challenged for numbers on piracy are market value. Basically, your reason for discrediting my numbers so far is "because I said the industry is making them look big".

If someone pirated a game before DRM, why would they buy the game and hinder their experience with the DRM, when they could simply pirate the game and avoid the DRM all-together?
Simple answer: Support of the industry. As an ex-pirater, I noticed a later trend of even the illegal industry feigning interest in this with comments of "if you like it, buy it" at the bottom...a statement we can't trust by basis of the Humble Indie Bundle and gamer freakouts at any attempt at control on the industry.

Companies need incentive to make games and, as a huge supporter of the "potential/develop the potential" style, I believe payments are key so we can find diamonds in the rough.

Gamers are ultimately at the will of the company too. Being a two way system, companies have to make games that gamers like and gamers have to give companies a reason to produce. And this is part of the problem...I don't think gamers like the second part of that. I know I use it to death, but David Wong of Cracked's article has a great laconic version of what's wrong with gamers in his #1 argument of Why It's Still Not Cool to Admit You're a Gamer: The fact that gamers want something but aren't willing to pay market value to get it. Companies had the option of one of two things when faced with issues with not getting returns satisfactory to their supervisors and money lenders: Increase sales prices to unreasonable amounts (which means we'd start seeing the rise of 100 dollar games), or copy protection. Unfortunately, we saw a freakout instead when they tried to make numbers that make each company's BoD happy. It's a positive feedback loop after...company produces game with protection rights, gamers dislike the rights and pirate it, BoD gets mad and demands company does something...and, guess what? Company produces protection rights. Reasonable, right, or the correct course of action, it's the function we've got and the one we've got to work with.

Yet at the same time, you see games selling millions of copies on the PC. Bad Company 2, a game which wasn't even a good "benchmarker" like Crysis, sold a reported whopping 3 million copies on the PC. Millions of games (keys) are sold during the bi-annual Steam Sales. I'd hardly call that a "not-so-fortunate decline" in the system.
As I said before, less than fortunate systems on decline can still sell well. Remember, I never stated that the regression would be fast or total.

Yes, PCs do become outdated, but not in the same way as consoles. Consoles are a combination of hardware and software, intertwined and impossible to change. So when there is a change in generations (for the same type of console. ex; PS2 ---> PS3 or Gamecube ---> Wii), the console instantly becomes outdated and obsolete. On the other hand, a PC lasts as long as its parts. A 2005 videocard has the potential to play certain games from 2011 (albeit on lower settings). It's impossible to categorize the PC into "generations" unless you define it by the software, but then you're only telling half the story. Yes, at this point XP gaming is obsolete / outdated, but PC gaming as a whole is not (which is what we're talking about)
It's all about the curve you desire to use. With a PC, there is a huge probability curve in terms of what the odds are of you being able to play a game. In some cases, you can hit obsolescence for some high quality game within 2 years. With a console, you KNOW that Console A will play every game for Console A. No if, ands, or buts (memory withstanding). In addition to a fairly generous backwards compatibility for most games, and it works out to a very large crowd. Yes, the PC has the advantage of play games from 8-10 years prior to its release, but as a fan of that type of game, I can tell you it absolutely sucks to do as new PCs, with software updates, take lots of patching to get to work. It comes close to not worth the effort in many scenarios.

PC gaming itself will continue to outlast any future generation of consoles. Just as console gaming would outlast any generation of OS gaming, but that's not the subject of the argument.
There is an impasse here unless you feel like averaging out the average shelf life of every game. Hits wise, we get very similar numbers as to how long a game can survive.

[Shiraishi-kun]

Got a couple of NeoGeo Pocket Color games here.

Sonic the Hedgehog: Pocket Adventure - How sad that one of Sonic's greatest sidescrolling triumphs ended up being one of his least-popular. This is an awesome game in the same vein as classic Genesis titles like Sonic the Hedgehog 2 and Sonic the Hedgehog 3 & Knuckles, and it features some very clever and fun level designs in throwback to the classic trilogy of Sonic games, taking visual inspiration from levels like Green Hill Zone and Chemical Plant Zone. The boss fights are also rather clever. This game was developed by Dimps, who would go on to create the Sonic Advance and Sonic Rush games.

Gals' Fighters - This is a one-on-one fighting game featuring female cast members from SNK series such as Samurai Shodown, The King of Fighters, Fatal Fury, Psycho Soldier and The Last Blade. It's also done in chibi-style art and is significantly more comedic than other fighting games (the girls can even get into a Big Ball Of Violence, and you have to mash buttons to get out of it).